Sunday, September 27, 2009

Can you prove that Jesus didn't resurrect?

I was recently challenged by a less-than-intelligent Christian to prove that Jesus did not rise from the dead. Once again, these people do not understand where the burden of proof lies. They have an extraordinary claim. They need extraordinary evidence to back it up.

Another thing he doesn't understand is that it's often very difficult, if not impossible, to prove a negative. The example given to me in my high school class was to prove that a particular kind of bird does not come in red. You could check all over the world, looking for a red version of this bird, and not find one. But you haven't proven anything, because you don't know whether or not you missed one.

So how would one go about proving that such a thing as a resurrection did not happen? My first instinct was to try to find the body of Jesus (keeping in mind that I'm not sure he even existed to provide a body to find). If we could find a body and identify it as Jesus, would that prove to Christians that he never resurrected? NO! Because the Christians would then merely counter that either this was not the body of Jesus, or that it didn't prove that he didn't resurrect once (which would be a correct objection). The body we had was from his second death, of course. We'd then counter that Jesus was supposed to have risen to heaven in physical form, body and all. They'd then counter that this was merely a metaphor (like they do with every other part of the Bible when it collapses under the weight of reality), and that only his spirit went to heaven, while his body perished. *Please don't comment if you think I'm wrong about the physical ascension, it doesn't matter to the point.

I don't think that there is a way to prove that such an event did not occur, and that the Christian is being an ignorant jackass by asking me to do so. Does anybody have any ideas of how we could do this? Or do you think I'm right in thinking that it isn't possible?

31 comments:

Gordon Goblin said...

You are right that you cannot prove a negative, and that the burden of proof should be theirs, and that they will constantly redefine the debate to keep from conceding.

My suggestion is that you move the discussion to why they are so certain Athena did not spring from the head of Zeus.

Use their own tactics and have them decry them as unfair.

sandi said...

You're right, you can't prove it. Faithless as you are you don't have the mental mechanisms to participate in the debate.

Admin said...

Thank, Sandi! You just said I'm not nearly gullible enough (faith = not thinking) to be convinced by your bullshit!

Peddle your garbage elsewhere. And make sure to pray really hard that your god will create a "faith mechanism" in my brain in time to save me. Pray REALLY hard.

Jim said...

I'd like them to prove that man didn't write the Bible to suit their own greedy needs and enhance the religion that was making them rich and powerful.

Reg said...

The only way to prove something does not exist, is to prove that it CANNOT exist,on logical grounds.

eg square circles,rectangular triangles-- or an omnimax God. A God who knows all, can do everything, is perfectly benevolent, cannot logically exist, beause there is "evil" and imperfection in the world. The omnimax god would be logically obliged to abolish evil.-but evil exists,-therfore God does not.
Physical resurrection of a truly dead body is logically impossible, because it breaks all logical laws which we know do actually work in real situations. To shout "miracle" is merely to repeat that the logically impossible happened anyway,-and therefore miracles, as well as God, do not exist.

Jim said...

Finally, a logical argument against God. I love it.

Also, here is another logical reasoning against God. I suggest you try it against believers and see what they have to say.

Ask them if their God is all powerful and all knowing. Ask them if God is perfect and absent from human flaws, such as wants or needs. Normal people would say yes to this, because they would hate to think that their God is anything less than perfect.

Now ask them why a perfect being without want (which would logically imply that he would never have need of anything and would always be satisfied) would need to create the universe in the first place.

If God has no wants or needs, he would not require praise or worship, or people under him, or a universe at all.

And if your God is all-knowing, then you can assume he knows everything that will ever happen to anyone, including himself. This would logically rule out God as all-powerful because if he knew everything that was going to happen to him, then he would have no free will, and thus no control over his own future.

To sum up, a perfect God who is all powerful and all-knowing, who is absent from want or need becomes a paradox of contradictions, and logically can not exist. He fails at the logic of his own being.

sandi said...

Your first failure, believing I would compliment you. Second failure, faith= not thinking. I assure you mine is a concidered and thought out faith. (I know you won't believe this but it is a truth.) I know you think you are smart and all that and maybe you are but you've failed to do some basic thinking.

Admin said...

Yeah Sandi, I'm sure you've thought about it super-hard! Ha!

Did you pray for me yesterday? Because I woke up today and I still don't believe your bullshit. You need to pray harder to get results!

By the way, do you have any comments on the actual subject of this post, which is how to disprove the resurrection? Or are you just here to spam about your faith anywhere you can?

Jim said...

I would agree with the Admin here. You tend to think the word "Fail" is a valid argument which we are supposed to accept as your successful debate against us.

Now I want to thank you for having thought out your faith a lot. I am sure you don't have blind faith in your God, because then you would have countered your argument that you thought your faith out. (You see, blind faith fails to be blind faith when you question it.)

Because you questioned your faith (Which is what I assumed you did when you said you 'thought' about it. I don't imagine you just sat there thinking about God for a really long time.), you would have had to have found some sort of proof to back up your faith. I don't doubt you are religious, or that you are smart, or anything like that. I am sure you have intelligence enough and I apologize if I question that.

But here's the rub. You don't have blind faith, I already assume that. You do, however have faith, and I can respect that. You have questioned your faith, I assume, and I think that is a wonderful thing. I applaud anyone who questions without following blindly. But if you still have faith after questioning it, I would assume you have answers. Maybe you are the one with the "mental mechanisms" to convert us. Who knows.

Here is my challenge to you, seeing as how you have questioned your faith. I have a couple quick questions which should be quite simple to answer by a person who knows there is a God and can do some "basic thinking".

1. How can you be sure, beyond any doubt, that Jesus rose from the dead?
2. How can you know, beyond any doubt, that there is a God?
3. How can you prove that the Bible wasn't assembled by man for no other purpose than to serve the church and empower the men controlling the church?

Now, I assume you are a smart person, like I stated before, so I would like you to back up your answers with scientific proof.

I might not have the "mental mechanisms" you have, but I am of a scientific mind and know that hearsay and conjecture are no substitute for fact-based evidence. I am sure you would agree that someone saying "because I said so," or "because God said so" and like arguments are not fact-based and evidence supported.

You are clearly an intelligent person. I hope that you can answer my questions intelligently with real answers.

God knows we need them.

Feki said...

There is this movie called Religulous, by Bill Maher. Early in the movie Bill comes across a satanist-turned-christian who happily provides a piece of "scientific knowledge" on the existence of Jesus-Christ. According to this person, a “DNA analysis” of blood found in the Holy Shroud showed that it only contains "female blood", kind of meaning that no "man DNA" was involved, which is what "anybody" would expect from a person who was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

Ok, I know the topic is on JesusCristo's resurrection so let's go back to that unique piece of... evidence, which is the Holy Shroud and the type of rationale that only theists are capable of:

(a) if there is a shroud, it MUST have been place on someone's dead body.
(b) And since the image on the shroud looks like a man with a beard, it must have been Jeeza.

Thus far we demonstrated JesusCristo's existence, but there is more.

(c) If we have the shroud but not the body, then... logically Jesus must have returned from the dead and is still alive but in heaven.

So yeah, there is THAT SHROUD kept in Turin, which scientists have subjected to radio carbon dating. After a series of analysis, scientists' conclusion is that around 1300 there was at least one medieval artist who liked to play practical jokes on people.

In the end, if we successfully proved that resurrection was only a sappy story used for bible propaganda... even then I am sure that christians would continue their endless PATCHWORK in order to support the lies and fallacies of their religion. Maybe even get their own CSI:Vatican City.

How do you recognize a good christian? when he/she finds a hole in his/her shroud, they look the other way and patch it. They'll patch it even with their own skin. Then they won't see past it and, best of all, THEY WON'T NEED TO THINK.

Anonymous said...

In your argument, you make a valid point about proving that a certain bird does not exist in red. In order to disprove it, you must find only one red bird of that species to prove it does not exist. Right there, alone, you have proven that you cannot disprove JESUS.

There is so much proof to attest to JESUS Christ's existence, that in the quest to disprove him, you are forced to prove he exists. I found a wonderful quick resource at gotquestions.org.

And in your sarcastic response to sandi about praying really hard for you, I am taking it serious. I am praying that GOD enlightens you with the same knowledge and wisdom that he has bestowed upon us all. I pray that you find peace in what you believe and accept what others believe. Ultimately, though, I do pray that GOD changes your mind set so you may see the beauty of his omnipotence, mercy, and grace.

With that said, GOD bless ya and Much Love!!!

Admin said...

"In order to disprove it, you must find only one red bird of that species to prove it does not exist."

This doesn't make sense.

"There is so much proof to attest to JESUS Christ's existence..."

GREAT! Please provide some! It's all well and good to just assert that the proof exists, but when it comes time to provide it....?

"...that in the quest to disprove him, you are forced to prove he exists."

This doesn't make sense either.

"And in your sarcastic response to sandi about praying really hard for you, I am taking it serious. I am praying that GOD enlightens you with the same knowledge and wisdom that he has bestowed upon us all."

Oh, please do! Pray with all your might! And when you say, "us all", do you mean the Hindus, too? Because as far as I can tell, more than half of the planet does not believe that Jesus was the son of a god. Shall I keep a record of all of the people who are praying for their god to reveal itself to me, yet failing?

Anonymous said...

Although i don´t know if anyone is still reading this i´d like to say a few things.

The main problem with disproving the existence of something is that you as already mentioned have to prove it impossible to exist.

First of all this is only truly possible in math. Because all other sciences are basically just assuming everything and have no absolute proof.

But the problem with disproving god is even bigger. If you assume that there is an omnipotent beeing it is quite easy to come up with a paradox to disprove him (for example can he create a stone he can´t lift). But that doesn´t disprove an omnipotent beeing at all because this beeing is so powerfull that it is beyond logic that it doesn´t have to care about logic at all.

And thus even if it is highly unlikely that the christian (or any other one for that matter) god exists it is always possible.

That of course doesn´t mean that he has to exist. And even if he did i´d still believe that following any kind of dogma will lead to our doom.

Anonymous said...

O.k guys (and girls/slaves or whatever else you may be.)



GOD=REAL
YOU GUYS=ASSHOLES

Feki said...

Yet another thunder-fearing hominid providing us with "no-nonsense" proof of god's existance....

Anonymous, can you make superman real too? I bet you can, if you wish it hard enough.

Admin said...

Feki, go easy on the anonymous poster. Don't you think he makes a solid point? I now see the truth. Why don't you?

Feki said...

Sorry, I was jealous of his irrefutable logic:

god = real

So simple, yet so unimaginably obvious!

Praise the real, zero-bullshit, god.

Anonymous said...

Who would not belive in the Holy Shroud?
So anyways,just think of the imprinted coins,the four fingers and all the rest.
I myself am a strong Roman Catholic and refuse to belive that the Holy Shroud of Turin is a fake.
Know one can prove it,but just with these proven facts who belives it is a fake?

Feki said...

Trust me, it is a fake.

Believing extra-hard in something will never make it real.

It perspective and body proportions are wrong, it has been replicated by artists, radiocarbon data shows it belongs to a different century... you know all of this, so come on!

Did you know there's a scalp and bones of a Yeti up in the Tibet? Do you believe those are authentic as well?

Blood Of Jesus said...

Jesus loves you all

Anonymous said...

hello Admin!

"Can you prove that Jesus didn't resurrect?"
"Did Jesus really exist?"

why should one prove someone existed, someone resurrected? there is no need to prove something that which is too obvious: by the fact you are asking such questions. look at history.
or may be you want to prove that Jesus not did exist or did not resurrect?

but this argument will have no end, because we have no common ground. you use reason. i use faith and reason.

Admin said...

"why should one prove someone existed, someone resurrected?"

Because you're making the claim?

"there is no need to prove something that which is too obvious: by the fact you are asking such questions."

Yeah, that made loads of sense.

Anonymous said...

u commented on the two statement, and i thank you for that.
can u comment on my third statement:
"but this argument will have no end, because we have no common ground. you use reason. i use faith and reason."

thanks again

Admin said...

Faith is useless. Faith is not evidence, it is believing something even though there is no evidence. In many cases, faith is believing something in spite of the evidence to the contrary.

If you want to use faith, go ahead. We'll laugh at you accordingly.

Jim said...

I'll offer a second comment on your statement:

"you use reason. i use faith and reason."

Basically, what a sane person is reading is:

"You use reason, I make up pretty much whatever I want to believe regardless of proof and claim it as true because I want my gods to dictate everything that happens."

Admin said...

You're right, Jim. That is what I read. I found it pretty funny that somebody might consider such an argument to be a zinger, but I have a feeling he's half-joking.

Miguel Mata said...

He is perfect and doesn't need us but loves us as a father loves his child. Parents don't need to create children, yet they do out of love just like God did. No one said he didn't know what was going to happen, in fact the complete opposite he knew what was necessary from the beginning and out of love created a universe with only humans having free will. Belief is an internal decision made by the individual, God does not interfere with our decisions. He gives us natural law such as gravity and matter that give us the sensation of reality and allows us to interact in our own unique way, but never influences unless asked to.

Miguel Mata said...

Existence of God will never be proven, but can reach a level of certainty that gets close through faith. Only a time machine can concur the ressurection of Christ since it's the only way to prove conclusively that it happened. Next best option is observing human behavior and it's patterns and compare the culture and psychology of those humans livin during that era especially the disciples and Christians to discover how their patterns changed. Looking at historical evidence we can conclude that the disciples converted not only to Christianity but from cowards to the bravest soldiers imaginable. Second, the traditions of the church have not changed as many claim, they have remained the same since its inception. Undoubtedly there has been corruption within the church but a lot if not mostly it has been self-less in its actions but again this can only help to improve your faith not conclude that there is a God. And yet much more evidence can infact be provided but will never conclude its reality but only insinuate it. So it's main purpose can only serve to strengthen faith or create it.

Anonymous said...

okay admin, just one thing, watch the language, many people get offended by you describing our faith as "bullshit". I would also like to ask you, how did the universe come about? was there a big bang? (i believe there was and that God caused it, hence this quote: 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.")
maybe i am trying in vain to let you see a real purpose in life other than assaulting christians about what they believe in, nevertheless, go to jerusalem and go to that easter service.

Admin said...

I don't give a fuck if you're offended. You must have mistaken me for one of those people who coddles you and your beliefs in your imaginary friend. My purpose in life is not to attack Christians, do you think I do this 24/7? I went to Jerusalem last spring, thanks.

I'll make you a deal. I'll stop calling you a fucking fool and stop calling your religion bullshit when Christians stop telling me that I'm a terrible person and deserve to be tortured for eternity. Until then, fuck off!

Jim said...

"was there a big bang? (i believe there was and that God caused it, hence this quote: 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.") "

So, you believe the Big Bang happened AFTER your god created the heavens and the earth? How is that possible?

And do you also believe that your god created man from dirt? Or woman from the rib of a man? That's some god that has to use materials he created out of nowhere just to make people. Seems any other god would have just created them.

Also, I love it when religious people try to steal scientific facts and wedge religion in there. If you truly believed in the Big Bang, you would understand that it does not require a god. You just inserted god in there so your life could have some kind of false purpose so that your life doesn't look so shitty in the grand scheme of things.

"maybe i am trying in vain to let you see a real purpose in life other than assaulting christians about what they believe in,"

I should point out, that by inserting your god (needlessly) into a scientific certainty assaults our scientific facts.