Wednesday, January 20, 2010

Dental pain and a deceptive brain (it rhymes)

Two years ago, I went to a dentist near my apartment.  He told me that I had two cavities.  I was pretty upset, as I'd always taken good care with brushing.  He offered to drill and fill the cavities for me right there.  I declined, as I was going to visit my hometown 2 months later, and would get it done by my dentist there.  He told me it wasn't urgent, and it would be alright to wait.  He and his wife then tried to preach Christianity to me, which was strange and unprofessional of him, but is besides the point of this post.

For the next 2 months, I had a rough time.  I used a mirror to detect the small cavities on my back molars.  They caused me discomfort and pain.  I couldn't wait to get them taken care of.

When I arrived back in my hometown, the first thing I did was go to the dentist.  I didn't say anything about the cavities before the appointment, and just went in for a regular check-up.  When we were finished, the dentist said it all looked good.  I was a bit surprised and asked him what we were going to do about the cavities.  He replied that I didn't have any cavities.  Now I was very surprised.  I told him that the other dentist said that I had 2 cavities, and that I'd seen them in the mirror.  He told me that those weren't cavities, they were something else that he was able to scrape off with his tools.  I was pretty relieved.

What's the point?  Is it that Christian dentists who preach in their offices aren't very good at their jobs?  Perhaps, but no.  What about the pain I was experiencing in those teeth?  Where did it come from?!

The human brain is amazing.  It has been found to be capable of a degree of healing, as in the placebo affect.  We have also seen what can happen to a person when a few things go wrong in their brains. But what I experienced for myself is how the mere suggestion that I had cavities, which I knew to cause pain in people, was enough to trigger months of pain in my own mouth.  The cavities were not there, but the feeling of pain was real.

This is the same way it works for religious people who claim to feel the presence of gods when they are told that they should.  For example, they're in some sort of religious building, surrounded by all kinds of crazy, chanting people, and then they're asked if they can feel whatever god it is that they're interested in.  There's a good chance they will.  It also works for all sorts of claims about seeing ghosts, etc.  If I plant the suggestion in your mind that a certain shadow looks remarkably like a ghost, you might see it too.

The brain is a mysterious, powerful thing, and can play all sorts of tricks on us.  This is the number one reason why 'personal experiences' should not be taken as evidence of anything at all.

41 comments:

Eillix said...

Thanks for sharing your experience Admin. The discussions on this blog have helped me grow as a person and I appreciate you taking the time to spearhead things.


I can agree with aspects of your post. Reading into things is not a good idea.

That dentist preaching to you, unprofessional. Especially when you didn't ask him for his opinion. We "religious types" seem to be good at giving unasked for advice. I apologize on his behalf. I hope we're not all that way.

At the same time I've tested the prayer thing for myself - I wondered if I'd find any issues or problems.

• I tested this using myself and people in my immediate social circle (people I actually met with).
• I gave my commitment a year. I decided that I wanted to see if there was anything to praying or not. I wanted to see at least a 1/5 of the prayers answered; nothing special about that figure just picked something to start with.
• To start, I wrote down tangible and/or specific requests or requirements (both for myself and others) regularly.
• I limited the number of people I shared information.with. If I prayed for someone or something I was talking about was about them, I didn't share my little experiment with them.
• I asked for things I didn't share with other people to see what would happen.

My goal wasn't to create a lab test :), I only wanted to prove or disprove things for myself.

I didn't make up the results I got and I can't explain them. I do understand that these results (favorable or not) happen after I pray. The mind is powerful but I don't believe my mind can keep manufacturing the results I've been getting because I want to believe in them. I haven't gotten everything on the list as well so that makes me wonder.

I realize that some people will laugh, make fun, or shake their heads at me and that's okay. Still, I've wondered why this happened as often as it has? Some of the things I've experienced aren't very probable from a mathematical standpoint. Yet it keeps happening.

Jim said...

Nice experiment. But you failed on one account. There was no control. You never stated that you spent a year not praying for things and seeing the effects.

While I appreciate your attempts, I must point out that this type of "experiment" is just the thing used by religious types to "prove" prayer. You say you pray, you measure the results, and then you get some data, and there you go, prayer works, just not all the time.

To a passerby, or to a layman, this would seem like concrete proof in the power of prayer.

However, to a scientist, or someone with a fundamental scientific knowledge, the experiment is shown to prove nothing. Why?

Simple. (I am sure you know all this, but I will explain for others.) When conducting an experiment of any kind, especially one comparing the effects of a certain action, you must set a base line. Something to counter the experiment, to show that the experimental data differs in some way from the base result.

In this case, you wanted to test whether prayer worked. Good experiment. But you failed to conduct the test properly. In order for this to work, you would had to have had other tests and other data to compare your results with. Several questions still stick out and can negate the results of your experiment.

1. Do the chances of positive things happening through prayer fall outside the limits of random chance or coincidence?
2. Do negative things happen more often when you don't pray?
3. What are the chances of getting the same results without prayer due to random chance and coincidence?
4. Does praying for negative behavior/action/results achieve anything, or is it only positive prayer that works?
5. Do you receive results when telling someone you'll pray, but then don't (Placebo Effect)?
6. Do you receive results when telling someone you won't pray, but then do?

This is just a sampling of the data you would need to address before you can boast the claim that prayer worked. In fact, as I am sure you are aware, several tests conducted in controlled environments prove time and time again that prayer has negative implications, if any. There has never been a overwhelmingly positive effect of prayer proven that lies outside the realm of simple chance or coincidence.

I myself have noticed that a lot of things happen to me even though I am an atheist and never pray. Some people have called me the luckiest person they have seen. I have survived two tours in Iraq without a scratch. I have been given advantages in life and professionally that seem to defy logic in the number of occurrences. I tend to get my way more often than not, and without the use of coercion or subterfuge. It doesn't seem possible to have my kind of luck mathematically, but I do. Is there a god guiding me? Of course not. Things happen. ON a long enough time line, it is possible and perfectly in accordance with the laws of physics for a man to randomly transport to Mars. The odds are the definition of astronomical, but because it can happen, it falls in the realm of chance. Everything is chance. From you finding your keys after losing them two days ago, all the way to someone beating cancer with no treatment. Things will happen. But to take all these random chance events (Of which there are infinite number, and everyone will experience one every second of their lives), and use this as a basis for a higher being is absurd.

If anything you should believe in the god of chaos.

Admin said...

Thanks, Jim. Your well thought-out reply saved me the trouble of a much longer post.

I do have some things to add though:

"My goal wasn't to create a lab test :), I only wanted to prove or disprove things for myself."

That's the problem right there. Your standard of proof is quite low for something you want to believe in, and probably already did, given your experiment design.

"I haven't gotten everything on the list as well so that makes me wonder."

It makes me wonder too. I wonder why you don't see chance at work.

Admin said...

Ellix, if you had any real confidence in your results, you'd be trying to prove it and publish it to the world, by doing a larger experiment under controlled conditions. You'd have a chance to prove something that nobody has ever been able to prove before, to fundamentally change the world forever. But you're not doing that. Instead, you're posting about it on my obscure little laymen's blog. That says an awful lot.

Cypher said...

Oh, Jim, you actually ARE a soldier. Sorry, I saw it in another thread once about Bush but I thought it was a joke:S Good on you.
This I thought was amazing, a study(I think it was published in New Scientist) showed that spinal neurones fired up in response to placebo drugs as if they were the real thing, but if you inject a negating chemical instead of the saline, and don't tell the patient, it doesn't work!

It was on the experiment when you punch the person's arm and say you are injecting morphine, but don't and it still works, but if you inject a chemical(which eludes me annoyingly, and so of these details may be a bit off because of it) which works to counter morphine, your body is unable to produce a placebo effect.
I thought it was awesome.

Eillix said...

Jim,

A). There was a control; I was an Atheist at the time of the experiment and had been for a year before. Before that I was an Agnostic. I should have made that clear.
B). You're right one must set a baseline. To answer your questions...
1. Based on what I saw, no. It's entirely possible to have chance in the issue.
2. No. Negative things happen regardless of whether I prayed or not. Sometimes things got worse. That test seems problematic - negative in terms of what?
3. I did not calculate this. I can ask someone to do that if you'd like. It will take time. Let me know if you're interested.
4. I did pray for negative things as well. Some of them gave results - most did not.
5. I saw no placebo effects from telling someone I would pray then not doing it. I'd like to see if that would be different if multiple people were praying for conflicting things or the same thing.
6. I didn't receive results when I asked someone to pray and they didn't. Again, I'd like to see if that would be different if multiple people were praying for conflicting things or the same thing.

It seems that in order for my test (and the tests researchers have conducted) on prayer to be balanced we'd need a to have people who knew that they definitely weren't being prayed for (though that would be a douchebag move).

I also wonder about how God would feel about this "test" and the tests of others. Would our true motives impact His decisions and how He chose to answer (or not answer)?

Without getting too personal, I tried to make my requests specific, giving each request some requirements (similar to the study you cited). It wasn't as simple as "please find my keys". The Goal for me was not to attempt to turn God into a slot machine, rather it was a proof and trust issue for me.

Call it Absurd, but it's worked and continues to work for me.

Eillix said...

Admin,
What should my standard of proof have been then, and why?

I don't see chance because things have been happening repeatedly, week after week for the past 2 years. I also don't see chance because I've depended on these results and they haven't failed yet.

I have real confidence in my results and that was the point. Let those that are interested work it out with God for themselves.

I shared my experiment here not because I was trying to prove anything to anyone, but because I've noticed in my life that there's truth to it. I don't believe that proving prayer works would change anything in the world at all.

Also, I chose to discuss things on your blog for a few reasons.

1. I've assumed from reading the bulk of your posts that you're not a cruel person. I haven't had the same experience with others.
2. While you're angry (and rightly so) you've been willing to listen, and you've been kind. This is a virtue that's not common.
3. This blog is obscure. I feel that indicates that the people reading this blog are probably those that believe in what they're saying. Other blogs I've read seemed to enjoy psychologically manipulating others or humiliating them because they believe different.

At the very least I hope that if I keep coming back more people will show up and you'll benefit as a result (maybe with Ads? Maybe not? Who knows). Either way more people won't be a bad thing. I know that getting 111 comments on a single post is a great start.

Jan said...

Why don't you try with coins?
-start by just throwing a coin 100 times without praying or anything. -write down your data.

-throw the same coin 100 times but praying to get heads.
-write down more data.
-Compare data.

Admin said...

Ellix, I have so many problems with your comment that my head is spinning. But I'm busy at the moment, so will need another few days to reply.

Eillix said...

No worries, I understand. Whenever you're ready.

ANTZILLA said...

Eillix.
Psedudoscience!

When your experiment method is validated (if ever.) I hope the others can give you some assistance.

Try also not "praying" to your god. But "praying" to yourself.
eg instead of "OH lord give me strenth to get through work" try " OK tommoorow I've got work, no big deal, I'll go great"

There has been proper science studies on positive thinking and meditation.

Eillix said...

Antzilla,

I don't recall saying anything about my experiment being "scientific".

What I did say was this:

My goal wasn't to create a lab test :), I only wanted to prove or disprove things for myself.

My "little" experiment was for me. I'm not asking you to believe in anything I believe.

Appreciate the feedback though.

ANTZILLA said...

Eillix,
I know your not trying to convert anyone.

Without a proper experiment aren't you just kidding yourself? You seem to have 'your' anwsers before the questions?

Q) Also what is an experiment without being scienctific? A)Psedudoscience

However asking questions is what science is all about.

Eillix said...

Antzilla,

I didn't have answers before the questions. If I did I'd still believe in Atheism or Agnosticism.

you said
Q) Also what is an experiment without being scienctific? A)Psedudoscience

I say
Since when are observations pseudoscience? Are you suggesting (by that definition) that all observations are pseudoscience if they don't adhere to the scientific method? Wouldn't that eliminate many forms of observational study?

If you're simply looking to understand something, make observations, and learn from them experiments can be helpful even if they don't have the mainstays that are common in the scientific method.

Noteable Examples:
a.) The Standford Prison Experiment
b.) The Milgram Experiment

Frankly observations are useful regardless of whether they adhere to a particular methodology or not. I don't believe that we as humans have all of the information to create a truly meaningful test on prayer and it's functions. I feel that there are many questions that would need to be answered just to construct a proper test of this kind.

As far as the scientific method goes, testing prayer seems difficult. How exactly do you create and successfully implement a double-blind test to assess prayer?

Also keep in mind that:
1. The scientific method can never absolutely verify (prove the truth of), It can only falsify.
2. "It is not enough to base scientific method on experience alone; multiple steps are needed in the scientific method, ranging from our experience to our imagination, back and forth." [emphasis is mine]

If I were in God's shoes, I'd find it really, pretty irritating that people talk to me only when they want something. I can't imagine that God feels great about that.

ANTZILLA said...

Eillix,
When those observations-
Use of vague, exaggerated or untestable claims,
Over-reliance on confirmation rather than refutation,
Lack of openness to testing by other experts,
Absence of progress,
Personalization of issues,
Use of misleading language.

Observations without method guidlines are open to interpretation.

Belief can alter observations; those with a particular belief will often see things as reinforcing their belief, even if to another observer they would appear not to do so. Even researchers admit that the first observation may have been a little imprecise, whereas the second and third were "adjusted to the facts," until tradition, education, and familiarity produce a readiness for new perception.

Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[1] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.

Eillix said...

Antzilla,

Keep in mind that this was a personal experiment.

1. I'm not really sure how you can make the assessment that my experiment used vauge, exaggerated or untestable claims with out knowing the full details of my experiment.

2. You said: "Belief can alter observations; those with a particular belief will often see things as reinforcing their belief, even if to another observer they would appear not to do so."
I say: Is it possible that this works both ways? Hmm...

3. Once again I have made no claims as to whether my experiment is "scientific".

It seems that based on your definition above and your providing me with a definition of the scientific method that you feel my experiment holds no value. That's alright with me.

Its interesting that the scientific method can never absolutely verify (prove the truth of), It can only falsify. In that regard how does someone use the scientific method to refute God's existence? Seems like a contradiction - have I missed something? Please correct me if I'm wrong (with sources please!).

ANTZILLA said...

Eillix, 1,2,3 all true,

So where back to the whole burden of proof thing.

Flying spagetti monsters!! created everything, prove me wrong.

Cypher said...

The scientific method can never absolutely verify anything because as scientists we have to be ready to accept fault in measuring what we wish to know. If we accepted everything as absolute fact then we would still have widespread belief in a terracentric universe, and aether, and all the silly guesses people had in the past. Including where we came from. And the scientific method cannot be used to falsify God because the claims made about it are so unreal that they are impossible to test. He's omnipotent, AND onmiscient, and he talks to people, and he made us, and this is his body, but not really HIS body...
If we didn't have idiots perverting science because of their stupid little lies then no one would ever believe in this bull****.
And when it's all gone and we move on, people will find bibles and laugh.
Unless they find them in Haiti, in which case they will think us to be more primitive than damn neanderthals.

Cypher said...

omniscient*

Eillix said...

Antzilla,

The problem with the burden of proof in this discussion is twofold:

1. I can't prove that certain events in the bible occured, just like I can't prove that I'm the one commenting on this site and not some other random person.

2. The philological, historical, and archaeological evidence I've shared has been rejected. However when I look at this evidence I want to understand what's going on.

As far as the flying Speghetti Monster (clever I see what you did there), pray to it everyday for 6 months see what happens. Pray to God everyday for 6 months and see what happens.


Cypher,

I agree with you that the scientific method can never absolutely verify anything.

you say
And the scientific method cannot be used to falsify God because the claims made about it are so unreal that they are impossible to test.

I say
How do you know the claims are unreal and impossible to test?

Saying that an entity doesn't exist because you feel that it's impossible to test sounds a lot like drawing a conclusion prematurely and saying that it's right.

Admin said...

Ellix, the reason we're polite to you here is that you seem to be a thoughtful, polite guy (girl?). Nathan was polite too, but he got run out of town because he was trying to pass off a bunch of bullshit as scientific facts that were just flat-out lies. Nathan did what they refer to on The Atheist Experience as "a theist bringing two armloads of steaming crap, dumping it in front of the skeptic, and it's then the skeptic's job to sort through it". I strongly resented my site being used for the purpose of misleading people about scientific fact. You on the other hand, have mostly presented your opinion on certain matters. However, not a single thing you've presented here has been even remotely compelling, or has caused me to require any thought at all into my stance on the issue of the existence of gods. You've been the best person we've ever had at this blog at explaining why the fact that we have no evidence is completely compatible with the existence of the supernatural. I'm going to try to be polite in my reply, but I really don't see how I can sugercoat some of my thoughts here. As I said before, I have a whole lot to say about this, but I'll try to keep it as short as possible.

You asked me what standard of proof you should use. How about a standard that would stand up to even the tiniest amount of outside scrutiny? You're talking about a decision to base your life on the teachings of a magical book, and go to forums spouting off about this being. Not to mention what you must do in your real life, the things you say to people, the things you teach your kids, etc. If it doesn't exist, you're a crazy guy rambling about your imaginary friend. You don't think the potential sacrifice of your very sanity deserves a little more critical thought?

Admin said...

I'm quite surprised at how easily you sacrificed your intellectual integrity. You designed an experiment that was so easy to pass that I'd be shocked if it didn't work! And my guess is that you already knew what you wanted the answer to be, because not many people who had actual critical thinking skills and were actually unbiased would design such an easily-passed experiment to use to determine such a major aspect of their life. You even have a pre-arranged answer for if the experiment goes bad. It isn't that multiple failed experiemnts would suggest that your god doesn't answer prayer, it's that your god just doesn't like to be tested. It seems impossible for the test to show anything but what you wanted it to. You prayed and got some things you wanted but didn't get other things you wanted? Holy crap, it's ground-breaking! So you mean, the results were exactly what would have happened without prayer? I get things I want all the time. In fact, I just came off an incredibly successful 2009, in which I figured out how to increase my salary by 25%, took 2 of my dream vacations, etc. I get them because I make good decisions and work for them. But sometimes I don't get what I want. All of this without praying at all, and actually spewing a good amount of blasphemy. Maybe Satan is rewarding me for my efforts to discredit Jehovah. That must be it.

You even copped-out on which god you prayed to. You chose the one which is most present in our culture. Did you try going down a list of all gods that have ever been believed in, and praying to them? Which one gives the best results?

Admin said...

So what was it exactly that you asked for? I'll be they were things that could have realistically happened anyway. What was it? New job? Good grades for your friends? All stuff that could have happened without gods, which makes your experiment a cakewalk. I'll tell you what, why don't we take it to the next level? Let's ask for something that is most likely not going to occur without divine intervention. I like elephants. Pray that an elephant comes to my apartment window next week to say hello. It's not so crazy, as I once had a girafee come to my window, but that was in Africa. But I also want you to pray that the elephant is safely transported back to where it belongs afterward, because I wouldn't want any harm to come to it. Your god can do it, it can do anything! And it answers prayer! Yet something tells me you won't do it because you know the results. Or why don't you go down to the hospital and/or veterans center and pray that some people grow their limbs back. That's something unlikely to happen without divine intervention. People always claim that god answers their prayer because something that could have happend anyway did happen. As Richard Dawkins has said, "If you find that sort of thing convincing, you're welcome!"

This is the part where you get to claim that we don't fully understand your experiment. You've kept cards played closely to your chest so that you can continue to make that claim in the face of skepticism. So, here's your chance to go into it in detail! Show us how well-designed it was. You didn't want to create a "lab test" because you knew it wouldn't pass, and I really suspect I know which direction you were leaning in before you started your "observations".

Admin said...

You asked what good it would do for you to be able to prove that your god exists. Are you serious? This is either insanely dumb or a cop-out, and I suspect it's a cop-out, as you're not a dumb person. You don't see how, in a world that is roughly 2/3 non-Christian, that being able to prove that the Christian god exists would change things? For one, we could stop talking about whether or not it exists and just focus on what it wants. We could save so many people's souls! We could get Bible study into schools, as it would then no longer be just a religion, but objective fact. We could open whole new fields of scientific medicine, based on prayer. But you don't want to actually attempt a proof, so you'll just wonder what good it would do, meaning you don't have to try to prove it.

I believe James Randi is still offering that $1 million for anybody who can successfully pass an experiment suggesting that the supernatural is real. I know you say that while your god will demonstrate its existence to you, that it won't do so if you tried to demonstrate its existence to other people, even though you also claim it wants to be found, but anyway..... even if you don't want the money, imagine what good you could do in the name of your god with such a large amount of money! You could build 50 schools in India! You could make a whole lot of wells in Africa for villagers to pump water! You could put so many solar-powered bibles into the hands of spiritually-needy Haitians! But you know just as well as I do that any test that is actually well-designed will fail. Otherwise, I'd love to hear your excuse for why you, and projects you'd like to support, don't need $1 million.

Admin said...

Finally, your arrogance astounds me. You seem to think that this god is answering your prayers for trivial little things, and does so nearly every week of your life, but this same god doesn't give a shit about people with REAL pain and REAL needs. The people of Kenya are highly Christian, but they are starving to death and losing their animals, which are their livelihood. There are children trapped in dungeons made by pedophiles, and those children are probably praying pretty hard for their god to come help them, but it's not happening. Christian American soldiers are praying for their lives and for their comrades, but are still coming back in body bags. An earthquake has trashed one of the most Christian countries on Earth, and the Christian god doesn't seem to care. Thousands were slaughtered while praying in churches during the Rwandan genocide. But what did you ask for? What was so important, and what is so spceial about you, that this god ignored poverty, murder, rape, child abuse, starvation, disease, etc., but helped you? So tell us! What did you ask for? What was it that was so critical? The more I write about this, the more this particular line of your thought actually disgusts me. It's arrogant, it's selfish, and it demonstrates a tremendous amount of ignorance (or perhaps just lack of consideration) of real suffering in the world.

Admin said...

I'm going to close by saying that if you have a way to prove, or even to strongly suggest, that the Christian god is real, and you don't share it and its related benefits with the world, that's pretty damned selfish. So get on it!

Admin said...

"I don't see chance because things have been happening repeatedly, week after week for the past 2 years. I also don't see chance because I've depended on these results and they haven't failed yet."

I want to comment on this, too. So you're saying that you depend on prayer to get the things you want? Meaning that you put in no effort at all, or any prep work, in order to get these things? You just pray? And nobody else does anything on your behalf, either? Because if you do put in any effort at all, guess what? Can you get a peanut butter sandwich to appear without making it or having somebody else make it for you?

I get things I want week after week, too. I have been for many years. If you think you have to depend on a god to get them for you, it might express more about your own personal weakness than any supernatural phenomenon.

I also want to ask why you say they haven't failed yet, yet you claim that you sometimes don't get what you want. You're all over the place here.

And once again, I'll ask what it is that you're asking for that compels your god to grant it for you, while ignoring people in real need. Seems like your god is a bit of an asshole.

Any progress on that elephant? When does your god tell you it will come? Shall I prepare some water and leaves for it?

Cypher said...

That.
Was.
Astounding.

Admin said...

Thanks.

Jim said...

The only word I can think of here is: Awesome.

Admin said...

Thanks! Maybe I should make this a full post.

Cypher said...

If you de-personalised the very start, you could probably get this published you know, like in a newspaper.

Jim said...

I just realized this a little while ago, but I forgot to add something about the prayer test.

To prove the validity of prayer, you would also have to prove that only the Christian God answered prayers. You would have to do this by going through every religion on Earth that has and does exist, and prove without a doubt, that no other gods were answering prayers. It would seem a little crazy if someone were to claim that their religion was the only one that had a real god, but then look over and see Buddhists having their prayers answered.

If that were true, then one can easily summit two theories.

1. There is no Christian God, just A god who doesn't care about religion, and just answers prayers every now and then.

2. There is no God. People just get lucky and coincidences happen. It's all chance.

I realize this is a Catch-22 for Christians. Either prove there is no god, or prove that your religion is incorrect, but there you go.

Feki said...

I remember Edward Current's vid about converting to ALL religions just to make sure one will get into "something" in the afterlife.

Eillix, maybe you can try this poli-religious approach and then tell us whether your prayer-performance index (PPI = success events/# of prayers) goes up or not.

It would be extremely interesting to determine which god is actually worth praying to by measuring the quantity and significance of the "miracles" performed.

Think of it, your research could help billions of unsuspecting believers.

Eillix said...

I will respond soon.

Admin said...

Honestly Ellix, don't bother. It's so sad to watch a grown(?) person using some coincidences and wishful thinking to justify their belief in the imaginary man. Your reply will just be filled with more of the same, and I'm pretty sick of that.

Send me an elephant, then we'll talk. That's the only response I'll consider at all useful or appropriate at this point. You're not going to make your case any other way. As Bart Simpson said, "Where's my elephant?!"

Cypher said...

How long have you been waiting to quote that?

Jim said...

I think everyone has been waiting forever to quote that. Rarely comes up.

Admin said...

The biggest difference here is that Bart Simpson actually GOT his elephant in the end. 'Stampy'.

ANTZILLA said...

If were all created in Gods image where does God go to get his wisdom teeth removed?

Daniel said...

Just gotta lol.