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Imagine that I am a 200cm, 150kg young man, highly-trained in 3 forms of martial arts, and armed to the teeth with guns and knives. I am out for a walk late at night in the city and see an average-sized man raping a petite woman in an alley. Rather than help, I continue walking. I don't even bother to call the police. I am then summoned to court for the murder trial of the man, and have to explain why I allowed her to be raped and murdered, when I was easily capable of stepping in and helping, or even calling 911. I explain to the court that I didn't want to interfere with the man's choice to rape and kill the woman. What kind of person would that make me? Should I be punished for failing to help?
Now what would you say if I was an omnipotent, omniscient god and failed to take action? An omnipotent god is infinitely larger, infinitely more powerful, with infinitely more weaponry at its disposal than the man in the above scenario. It knows everything, so it is well-aware that the woman is going to be murdered after being raped, yet it fails to help. This is the quite-real scenario which Christians, Jews and Muslims attempt to shove down our throats every single day of our lives. Yet they (mostly) claim their god is completely good. Is it any wonder that I don't buy it? And is it any wonder that I think they're stupid, disgraceful bitches and bastards for believing it, or why I call their god a monster?
Monday, February 1, 2010
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What is even more appalling in the second scenario is that the god created the murderer knowing full well it would live to rape and murder. It could have created a well-rounded individual who devoted his life to helping others, but instead created a raping, murdering person.
And if this god did exist, he would have created millions of these people.
This is the point I often reach where I hit the circular argument.
If it knows everything(omniscient, seeing all as in past/present/future), then it knows what it will do, and what I will do, so there is no free will.
Also, if it is all-powerful(omnipotent), then it has the power to change the future and past, and even what I am doing, so again there is no free will.
The paradox here is, can God know enough to predict himself, and if so, does he have enough power to change what he sees? Logically, no, so he isn't both.
The point was though, if everything we do is already written to a tee, or if our will can be changed by that of another, what right does it have to punish or reward us?
Simple example, you go to heaven if you pray, you go to hell if you're homosexual. (Didn't want a rhyme, its not the time.) So why does God decide to make 9 prayers and a gay person? And what's the point of commandments, or prophets, or Jesus?
Either im gonna do what he says anyway, or I don't need to.
And it really doenst seem like i need to.
Here's something I thought of that shouldn't fail to expose hypocrisy.
1. Country A has 100 people.
2. Country B has 100 people.
3. 50 citizens of Country A meet God's requirements to go to heaven.
4. 10 citizens of Country B meet God's requirements to go to heaven.
5. A citizen of Country B is statistically more likely to go to heaven.
They will accept this most certainly (you can substitute A/B with America, etc.)
Now:
1. Poor people on average tend to believe in god at a higher rate of frequency than rich people.
2. People who believe in god will go to heaven.
3. Since less rich people on average believe in god, given equal numbers of rich and poor people, fewer rich people will go to heaven.
4. Rich people are statistically less likely to go to heaven not because they are rich but simply because there are on average less believers per person.
5. Poor people are statistically more likely to go to heaven not because they are poor but simply because there are on average more believers per person.
They will never accept this interpretation, which on an elemental level is no different than the first hypothetical. The more personal it gets, the more they will resist and contradict themselves. Substitute women vs. men for example.
It is like two stones falling from a tower. They fall at the same rate, each time you drop them, you move them closer together until they eventually touch. The speed should be the same, but the religious say, "OOOH double size, double speed."
How sound is my logic (forget the hasty analogy)?
Maybe I misinterpreted this, is point 5 in hypothesy 1 a given fact, or is your math wrong?
50/100 = 0.5
10/100 = 0.1
So any given citizen of A is more likely to he heaven bound.
Unless the different chances are part of your idea to do with hypocrisy, and I'm totally overshooting.
The rich and poor idea is good, since the bible does talk about how hard it is for the rich to get into heaven.
(Though the catholic leader has his own COUNTRY.)
And it is statistically true, though I can totally see how this, and especially men/women would be rejected despite the numbers backing it up.
Got those 2 mixed up.
About the poor thing, try as you might, no religious will accept that fact. Start with the rich poor example then move to the A/B example, they will contradict themselves every time
Out of all the explanations proposed by wikipedia on the "Free will vs Omniscience" issue, I thought this to the less abominable:
God can know all possibilities. The same way a master chess player is able to anticipate not only one scenario but several and prepare the moves in response to each scenario, God is able to figure all consequences from what I will do next moment, since my options are multiple but still limited.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience
This is actually an uncommon explanation from theists, as it requires a higher degree of intellect to imagine a real-time simulation with god recalculating the course of history every thousandth of a second.
Still it fails, because knowing "all posibilities" still implies that god would know "what will happen in the end" (else there is no omniscience) allowing only an "apparent free will" to which we are supposed to be grateful.
And that'd make god much more of a monster: he knows all the possible alternatives for murder (axe, gun, choke to death) and all possible variations of rape (won't explain myself here). He "foresees" all combinations and "allows" one to happen. What a jerk.
To expand, this god, being all-knowing, would also be supplying Hell with people. He would surely know that certain people were going to sin, and thus be banished to Hell for all eternity.
Seems pretty strange for an all-loving being to create people who he knows from before they are even created are going to suffer an eternity of pain and torture. As far as I can tell, Satan has never created anyone or banished anyone to a lifetime of abuse. Who is the real devil here?
Hell? great, god "made me" knowing I would grow up to doubt his existence and rant about his assorted religions on internet blogs... just so he could chuck me down Lake Inferno among the countless souls who also happened to dissent.
Yet, if I "freely choose" to believe in him, his son, and his ghostly-pidgeon I can save myself. Now, that's real samaritan-esque :)
I've heard atheists express that they're "angry with God for not existing". I'm not sure if this applies here or not.
I'd like to offer everyone a Free Audio Download: The Problem of Pain.
It discusses many of the points that are discussed here, and provides a more detailed response.
I hope that it gives everyone a fresh perspective & deeper understanding of evil, pain, suffering, and the ramifications it has on each of our worldviews.
Again, this is simply an attempt to share, not an attempt to "convert".
I hope it offers more clarity.
Not trying to convert? Please. Your opinion(as in any) is expressed at any time to see who else has it and to make more have it. Saying 'I (don't) believe in (anything)' will just test the waters and open up a debate.
You lot are so full of hypocrisy it's grotesque.
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